Andrew, so far I've noticed two things I'd like more help on. First, it's sometimes hard for me to understand just from what's given in the notebook exactly what I'm supposed to be teaching my children. Sometimes a little outside research helps. (For instance, Peter Kreeft's Socratic Logic was helpful for the definition lesson.) Sometimes I feel as though I'm just winging it and don't really know how to answer the kids' questions. (How many paragraphs should this basic persuasive essay be? How many sentences per paragraph? ...) I'm not quite sure what an exordium looks like myself, so I'm not convinced I will do a great job of teaching it tomorrow - and I'm a little anxious about those lessons coming up where I won't even have your lesson plans to help me figure out what the subject matter of the lesson is: those plans have been fleshing out for me the things I need to understand before I can teach them.
Second, some of the modules demand a lot of preparation ahead of time, and if you don't read through the guide till the night before you teach it, it's a bit disconcerting to find that you have a lot of hours to put in before class writing models or finding examples. It might be better to encourage people to at least skim through a whole lesson or two ahead so they're aware of what kinds of writing they need to be doing themselves and what kinds of examples to look out for while they're reading. Or maybe there could be a "materials needed" list somewhere that would show what preparation was necessary for all the lessons in one place?
I'm listing gripes because this is the "Difficulties with LTW" thread, but I am really thankful for all the work you've done, and we're all learning a lot from it this year. Thanks!
I know very little about classical education and nothing about classical rhetoric so a first glance through the notebook left me overwhelmed. The terminology was daunting. I must admit that I did not follow your advice and listened to all of the CD's and read the entire notebook. What can I say? I like to know where I'm going.
After six years of trying to teach our sons how to think and write, trying numerous curriculum and methodologies along the way, I'm excited about what I see in your program. Strategies for generating original, fresh ideas combined with methods to organize those ideas. And some style techniques with depth. So much of what I'm looking for. However, I can see where I'm going to run into problems. I can take our guys through the first several essays because I've had some experience with the format. ANI presents no problem because of your excellent modelling on the CD's. But at this point, I begin to feel muddled. I'm going to offer up a few wonderings with the hope that you or one of your apprentices can help.
Do we use the ANI exercise for developing the nine, persuasive arrangments while working on the other invention modules? I'm not clear about how the Five Common Topics - Questions Invention fits the Introductory Persuasive Arrangement. I can see the Definition Inventions being used with the Definition Arrangment and the Comparison Inventions being used with the Comparison Arrangement, but what about the other inventions; i.e. Circumstances, Relation, Authority, etc. Where and how are they used?
The Complete Persuasive Essay, Arrangement Worksheet 4, calls for the possible inclusion of a narrative. Is this narrative related to the thesis, proof, or refutation? If the writer included an anecdote for their exordium, then what is the purpose of this second narrative?
Do you have sample essays that illustrate the invention and arrangement modules? I realize the topic possibilities are endless with your program (a bonus in my opinion) so each essay will be formed based on the direction the invention process takes the student, but samples of ways invention ideas have been incorporated into various arrangments would be helpful.
I'm still thinking through these materials, so more questions will be forthcoming.
Thank you.
Bonita
P.S. I think I'm in need of a mentor/coach before I can launch this with my children.
One quick note, all the invention material from all the topics goes into an ANI chart. That's the key to going from invention to arrangement. From the ANI chart, we get the material that goes into the arrangement worksheet (then used according to the corresponding template).
You're saying that the questions on the Invention Exercise Form B: Introduction to the Five Topics should also be worked through using the ANI Chart. I don't quite understand. Do you turn the Comparison questions, for instance, to issues and then work through the process? For example, if you were comparing General Lee to General Grant, you would look at their similarities as they relate to each column of the ANI chart? Is that what you mean? Also, are you saying the material generated from the Definition Invention Form 1B gets put into an ANI chart before moving it to an arrangment?
Yes, Bonita, you're on the right track. All the information that comes from any of the invention exercises you do goes into the columns of an ANI chart.
After your ANI is full, you'll select information (another lesson!) to move to the Arrangement Worksheet (start with the simplest!).
From the arrangement worksheet, you'll begin to write the persuasive essay (the elocution phase).
To answer your middle question, you'd have to start with a question about General Lee or General Grant. You might ask if General Lee fought for the South. Then you turn your question into an issue. An issue always starts with the word "whether"! So now we have "whether General Lee should have fought for the South". That goes at the top of the ANI chart. Then you'll go through your invention topics to fill up the ANI chart. Next you'll arrange the material, then you'll start to write. (Comparing the two generals to each other would be part of your invention.)
Thank you so much for your post and for taking the time to talk with me yesterday. As I mentioned in our conversation, I will post my questions on the forum so anyone who is interested in LTW or just beginning with it, as I am, can get the benefit of your wisdom and experience. Just telling me that all of the inventions work gets transferred to the ANI chart took me past the border of the puzzle.
As regards your post of yesterday, I want to make sure that I understand you correctly. If we planned to do a comparison/contrast paper on General Grant, we first would develop a question; i.e. Was General Grant a better general than General Lee? We would then turn that into an issue; i.e Whether General Grant was a better general than General Lee. Then, we would work through the comparision/contrast inventions, possibly using the Intro to the Five Topics and the other comparison/contrast invention exercises to generate ideas such as their education, family background, military experience, supplies and resources, temperament, personal relationships, staff, etc. From those invention exercises, we would take all of our ideas, sort them in a way that might work for the arrangement we are using and develop an outline using the corresponding template. Then, it's time for us to write. Is this the basic idea? Also, from what you said yesterday, we will work though one elocution exercise per week, gradually incorporating those concepts into our essays.
I just wanted to comment that we have used writing curriculum with different emphasis; i.e. strucure, ideas, voice, etc. At one point, I felt our sons were doing a wonderful job modelling and producing correctly structured essays, especially if the source material was good. However, I did not feel their pieces had any personal voice. In addition, when asked to generate original ideas on a subject, they floundered. So, we moved on to materials that had a strong emphasis on ideas/content. They made real progress, but we ran into problems recently when our 16yos took notes for a speech he is writing, and his notes were a collection of main ideas. I asked him how he planned to flesh out those main ideas into paragraphs and if he had forgotten that most people write following a certain format; i.e. main idea, support, support, support, etc. He replied that he had forgotten. That response rattled me because I realized that he had not internalized the patterns (arrangments) of writing after all our years of writing work and that we needed to re-examine our approach.
We'll be launching into LTW this weekend. I think I've got enough to work with at this point but will post questions as we go.
I just spoke with Andrew, and he answered my question about the comparison/contrast essay. I now realize that the ANI invention form is used only with persuasive essays and the comparison/contrast invention forms are used with a comparative paper. He also mentioned that the comparison/contrast invention forms could be used for the persuasive paper during the invention process.
I would like to add a quick note here to the discussion. I too have taught many writing programs over the last 8 years and the Lost Tools is not quite like any of them! This certainly creates a learning curve.
Since you mentioned that you will be starting the program this weekend, I would just like to encourage you to be very willing to take each module and lesson one step at a time. I too am a beginner with this, one of the new apprentices, and I am just beginning lesson 2 with a number of classes. If you could see me at times, you would see that I STRESS out about not understanding all of the lessons in entire book yet. I would like to say that I do, but I don't.
So I just wanted to let you know that there are others working on this learning curve with you. I know that if we keep asking questions we will keep getting answers. I just went ahead and started with the beginning lessons and then I keep reading and asking. As you begin the lessons, more of the terms and practices will make more sense.
Yes, that's right. I've only been talking about persuasive essays. In those, all the five topics of invention can go into an ANI.
And by the way, I'm in the same boat with you and Leah (thanks for jumping in, Leah!!). I may be a few months farther down the road, but I certainly haven't arrived!! I'm learning too...so when you ask about things from the end of the book, we'll all need answers from Andrew! That's why we're here. We're all plugging away and learning as we go, but, as Leah said, we are seeing encouraging results.
Thank you ladies for taking the time to post. I know I can't understand everything in LTW because it's loaded with ideas that are new to me, but I've got enough going now to jump in. I told Andrew that I'm going to post our work as we move along even though some of it may be completely off track. I'm sure somebody will know more than we do and point us in the right direction.
I have been known to read LTofW and find that I've forgotten something or not seen something; so this may be a stupid question. We're on week 2 of Module 1 and therefore will be doing the first elocution class tomorrow. I've read through the module explanation. I've read through the module presentation. I don't see where the worksheets for the first elocution module are introduced or explained or assigned. I don't think I really *need* help in explaining it, but I don't know when to do it. I think it shouldn't take all that long to write the "incredibly boring" paragraph or two as the examples, so should we do that for the second elocution class? Or maybe both things both days?
In referring to the first elocution worksheets, do you mean the one on "subjects?" The subject module isn't until lesson 3. The Paralleism module, worksheet 7 actually comes before the subject module. (I have rearranged the worksheets in one of my books so that it follows the actual teaching sequence.)
It is my understanding that the first elocution module has no worksheets-it is just writing the very tedious, simple paragraph essays. I only took one lesson to do this since all of the students had written essays before and needed little instruction on this phase. It was a great reminder for all of them though.
I think I'm ready to read through everything now that I know a little more of what I'm doing. Unfortunately when I first try to read something before actually implementing any of it, I'm confused about how everything fits together. Once I get the hang of a few things and have a better view of the bigger picture, I can fit the rest in more easily. Now's the time, I think. I guess since the worksheets for the arrangement module were labeled "1" I assumed the same for the elocution worksheets.
Thanks Jennifer. This is exactly the feedback we need. Everything you send us will be taken very seriously.
THANK YOU!!!
And thanks Bonita and the rest for your questions and discussions. I have read each of them and will participate where necessary over the next day or two.
This discussion is helpful for me, because one of the great challenges I've found with this program is that the classical writers and teachers used a different set of categories based ona different set of assumptions than modern teachers and writers. I wrestle constantly with the tension between presenting a specific detail or exercise or explaining the big picture.
I'm not sure there is a solution that applies to everybody. Here is my advice: If you are prone to think from the big picture to the details, listen to the whole CD set, read the whole instruction guide, preview all the worksheets, and think about the whole year until you feel comfortable with it. Then teach lesson one.
If, on the other hand, you are more comfortable working from the details to the big picture, just work through the lessons one at a time.
But I must say that even that second group should scan ahead when possible. This program attempts to set teachers free by explaining the ideas behind writing and providing examples of each. Most programs put teachers in bondage to the scope and sequence. Many teachers prefer that bondage. I've tried to compromise by creating a scope and sequence that a teacher can follow for the first year, but only so you can master the ideas and then be free to apply them to teaching, writing, and living - where they belong.
In short, as much as possible, try to understand the goals and nature of this program, the former of which is to understand the goals and nature of writing and the second of which is an exploration of the nature of the learning process as applied to writing.
I hope this provides some context for thinking about how to use the program, if not yet specific, detailed instruction of how to teach a given lesson.
Andrew, I thought it might be useful if I gave an example of the kinds of things I often wouldn't understand about a given lesson if I had only the descriptions in the first section of the notebook and the worksheets to guide me. Right now I am working on my lesson plan for Arrangement Module 5. In your module guide, there's a list of skills, knowledge, and understanding I need to teach the lesson, and a list of skills, knowledge, and understanding the students should have when I'm done. From the description of lesson four and arrangement worksheet 3, I can deduce that a persuasive essay should include an amplification, and that the amplification should answer the questions, "Who cares?" and "Why do they care?". But until I looked at your module guide, I could not, or at least did not, figure out:
- the most common people to whom an argument typically matters - that the interested party must not be the reader himself (I still don't understand why) - that the reasons people typically care are consequences, etc. (I am not sure I understand what all these mean) - that the end of an essay should stir the hearers
Well, okay, I did know that the end of an essay should stir the hearers, but I didn't know that this was the purpose of the amplification. When I look at the list of things I would not know and understand myself without your module guides, I deduce that without your module guides, I am not able to enable students to write a simple amplification at the end of their essays. So if this kind of detail could be added to the lesson overviews (or anywhere else that made sense), it would be very helpful.
I have found one other problem with the program, too: the notebook is too small for me to add the lesson plans for the rest of the year.
This is helpful. Thank you. Do you think the solution might be to add more detail on the objectives when we write the introductions to each lesson in the Instruction Guide (as opposed to the module guides)? In other words, should we move the information that you noted in the module guide into the instructiong guides introductions?
Is the biggest problem vocabulary? Structure? Order of presentation? Detail?
Yes, Andrew, I think that moving all the information that's given before the order of instruction in the module guides to the instruction guides (or of course repeating the information in both places) would be very helpful.
Is the biggest problem vocabulary? Structure? Order of presentation? Detail?
Well, I'm not sure, but I think it may be a combination of vocabulary and detail. In other words, sometimes new terms could use a more thorough definition, or more than one kind of definition. But sometimes my problem is not understanding how new information fits with old, or when, why and how best to use it. As I have been thinking about this on and off over the weekend, I have wondered whether the best "fix" for this might not just be to run not only the main concept of each module, but also all the sub-points included in the objectives through the topics.
For instance, when I get to the module on amplification, I want to know not just, "What is an amplification?" but "What does 'viciousness' mean in the context of 'reasons why this issue matters'?" It sometimes helps to have more than one kind of definition; essential definitions are good, but it can be even more illuminating to add a definition by parts and/or one by example. For most of the arrangement and some of the elocution modules, it would be very helpful to see something like, "The concluding paragraph of a basic persuasive essay with an amplification should look like this: . . ."
I'm not sure I've needed a comparison on any of the topics so far, but I suspect there will be times it might be helpful: some of the figures that will be introduced later in the program, for instance, may be better understood by comparison to others that the students already know.
Relationship is helpful, especially if you define "cause" broadly. "The purpose of amplification/parallelism/whatever is ____" "When you write a good [exordium/amplification/parallel sentence...], your reader will react this way." When I don't understand "Why?," I find it especially hard to help the children figure out the "What" and "How". (Why should the reader not be the person to whom an amplification matters? Why is this paragraph better when I use parallel structure than when I don't?) I know you're already doing this with a lot of the main topics, but I could sometimes use this kind of explanation for sub-points, too.
Circumstance: In what circumstances is antithesis (or parallelism, or a statistical exordium, or addressing the amplification to God,...) particularly effective? In what circumstances should it be avoided?
I know I said I'd been thinking about this for the last few days, but I can't say I feel sure about these conclusions, as far as they go, so please feel free to modify, stray from, or ignore them. But for what they're worth, here they are.
